What Counts as a Job in Law School Graduate Job Statistics?
Saturday's Clarion-Ledger had this article about all the law school graduates with no jobs. MC Law Dean Jim Rosenblatt had this circumspect quote in the article:
“This economy makes for a tougher job market, but our students work very hard," MC Law Dean Jim Rosenblatt said.
The article quotes statistics that I'd bet money are misleading:
According to the National Conference of Bar Examiners, about 80 percent of the students will pass the bar exam on the first try, and nearly 90 percent of students from each school had jobs within nine months of graduation in 2009 - the most recent figures available.
It's my understanding that some of Dean Rosenblatt's recent graduates are working very hard with jobs…..delivering pizzas. Last time I checked, you didn't need a law degree to get a job at Domino's.
Does that 90% employed figure count jobs that graduates take because they can't find a job using their law degree? Does it count service industry jobs that do not even require a college degree? I'm betting yes.
Let's be honest. Law schools are big business and represent profit centers for their universities. How much does a year of law school cost at MC? $50,000? So is it in a law school's interest to tell applicants that the school will take you money and spit you out in three years without a job? No, it's not.
And for what? From what I hear, it's unlikely that a graduate of a Mississippi law school will get a real legal industry job. And the notion that going into $150,000 in debt for a law degree that you are not going to use is a joke.
How about hanging up your shingle after law school? Two words: good luck. I'm not saying that it can't be done. But it often ends badly—even for lawyers with years of experience. And when its over, they have even more debt.
Meanwhile, law school classes are getting bigger. And the money keeps rolling in for the universities.
While I totally agree with the premise of this post, you make it sound like this is a MCSOL-only problem. It is not. I an sure that new graduates from the law school at Ole Miss are having difficulty finding law jobs as well.
The legal hob market is so bad that it has reportedly caused a graduate of one law school to sue the school.Unfortunately, I can't find a link to that story at the moment.
The MC web site says the average cost for a first year law student at MC is just under $30,000. I'm certain that many of the students have financial aid in the form of grants and scholarships, so the debt burden isn't quite as high as you imply. Dean Rosenblatt told me that my son, who had a 180 or thereabouts on the LSAT, would have had a free ride at MC had he closen to go there to law school.
The problem is the unlimited amount of federal loans for law school tuition/living expenses that is not dischargable in bankruptcy. Law schools and lenders are the winners, the law school graduating with crushing debt are the losers. Law schools get paid up front from the lenders, and the lenders get a payments guarantee from the Government. In other words, the lenders and law schools virtually have no risk, and amass huge profits. This is a huge problem, and needs to be addressed soon. Young lawyers are not becoming indentured servants to Sallie Mae.
The other problem is that law schools are not being transparent about employment statistics. I was wondering whether an auspicious Plaintiff attorney would file suit one of these days for misleading employment statistics and luring young 20 somethings into over 100k of non-dischargable debt.
Philip--You need a "Like" button for this post.
The problem is a national one. Ave Maria Law School in FL had a big "dustup" last year over its repports on graduates'jobs. See articles in the ABA e-Journal, which is free to all by simply sending a request to: abajournalreport@americanbar.org
"I an sure that new graduates from the law school at Ole Miss are having difficulty finding law jobs as well."
Definitely, but with much less debt, and having graduated from a better-ranked law school.
@Ian: Did you mean to say that young lawyers ARE becoming indentured servants to Sallie Mae?
"Definitely, but with much less debt, and having graduated from a better-ranked law school."
Anybody that still believes that Ole Miss has a better law school than MC is living in the past. MC has had better facilities over the last few years, has attracted top notch students as a result, and it has dominated Ole Miss in moot court competitions. The bottom line is that the two law schools are about the same. There is no real difference. I got into both schools, but actually chose MC because of the facilities and its close proximity to the legal community in Jackson.
Anybody that still believes that Ole Miss has a better law school than MC is living in the past. MC has had better facilities over the last few years, has attracted top notch students as a result, and it has dominated Ole Miss in moot court competitions. The bottom line is that the two law schools are about the same. There is no real difference. I got into both schools, but actually chose MC because of the facilities and its close proximity to the legal community in Jackson.
Caveat emptor, potential law students!!
I call BS on Bill Dees. 180 is a perfect score. The average LSAT at an Ivy League school is in the low 170's. There are a few students that make that kind of score, and maybe your son was one, but 180s are rare. So generalizing (180 or thereabouts) isn't being honest to people unfamiliar with the test.
I believe the top 10% at MC and Ole Miss are comparable. But I also believe the bottom 10% at Ole Miss is probably stronger than the bottom 10% at MC. That is purely based on admission standards. And besides, you probably don't want to hire the bottom at either school.
My advice to a student of any law school is work hard and do your research up front. You will do fine.
Realistically, if you finish low enough in your law school class you can become Mike Moore.
Seth, better school or not the Ole Miss kids win at the end of the day. Less DEBT is the key. Even then law review, moot review, GPA, in this economy is meaningless.
As far as facilities, you must be referencing the fact they let more kids in than they have parking for?
I didn't say "better," I said "better-ranked." Was I wrong?
No Anderson, you weren't wrong. And with the recent completion of the Khayat Center, Ole Miss could potentially be first tier in a couple of years. In fact, MC's rank isn't published, for whatever reason.
Tuition at Ole Miss - $10,275
Tuition at MC - $28,070
Thanks for the data, Matt!
I will suppose that the education at MC is of equivalent value, but I would need some extensive evidence that it's 2.5 times more valuable than UM's law education.
(Granted, some State fans might pay that premium so's not to have to live in Oxford, but still.)
@A Lawyer: Sorry, I thought 200 was the maximum LSAT score (200 was the minimum score when I took it). My son's score must have been in the low 170's. It's been a while, and my memory failed me (again). My point remains - the costs, even at MC, aren't as high for most studends as Phillip implies.
@ Jose - Yes. I didnt proof read the comment before posting it.
Bill, how many students at MC do you think scored 170+ on the LSAT? You can give me a ballpark number, but I have a pretty specific one in mind.
Great post! As a recent grad of Ole Miss, I can attest that it is a bargain compared to any private lawschool or other public law school in the southeast, tuition wise. I was amazed at how many out of state students were admitted as in-state students, based simply on them having attended undergrad at Ole Miss.
On another note, I do not give must credence to the the various ranking schemes for law schools. Outside the the true top 20, what tier a law school falls into is irrelevant in my opinion. Lets face it the vast majority of Ole Miss and MC law students are not competiting for jobs with Yale, Harvard, and Stanford grads.
As for LSAT scores during my first year at Ole Miss only two students that I was aware of made over a 170. One did extremely well, law review, moot court, etc., and the other was middle of the pack.
@ Ole Miss JD. My specific number in reply to your post is "zero", as I expect yours is. Which just goes to show you why he went to Tulane, and not MC.